I an saddened by this. Now all raw material discussions will move to Yahoo.
Grant, are you sure this is the outcome you wanted?
It seems that many on this board have taken the liberty of proposing and/or carrying out splits of raw materials. Despite their good intentions, these members are and have been in violation of the current marketplace rules which state that all such transactions must be conducted there. These rules also state that one of three requirements must be met before anyone can initiate such a thread there, with additional split board requirements due to the large sums of money a splitter may have access to. We are now posting a Raw Materials stickie in the split board. Please cease all such actions in the DIY board and please read and follow both the marketplace and split board rules. Those currently offering splits in the DIY board must move them over only if the splitter meets the requirements. Otherwise those currently offering such splits must remove them or risk an infraction. Thanks for your understanding and cooperation.
I an saddened by this. Now all raw material discussions will move to Yahoo.
Grant, are you sure this is the outcome you wanted?
Chris- Why are you saddened by this? Would you propose that a newbie here be allowed to collect large sums of money to split expensive raw materials? The slight inconvenience of having to do this in a specific marketplace board should be offset by the protection of having to meet some strict requirements. I don't think this forum was set up with the intention of allowing it to be a marketplace of its own, but rather a discussion forum for DIY perfumers.
Not to put too fine a point on it, and with all the respect you are due as moderator stuigi, the people offering to do group buys here are hardly noobs. We know each other quite well. Pkiler has been here since 2007 and is an actual perfumer. He does not have 500 posts, but I trust him a sight more than some who have 500 one-word posts about "what are you wearing today" or "what goes with steak". Equally, the concept that we are "collecting large sums of money", and therefor, I gather, somehow not to be trusted, is frustrating to me. This is not like somone collecting money to buy some aqua di gioia on amazon with his discover card. These group buys are almost exclusively for things not otherwise available publicly and where minimum orders are normally for commerial buyers only. Folks are using their hard earned connections/relationship with suppliers who trust them. I know in my case, once I have committed to buy from the supplier, I will buy, even if have not received payment from the others in the buy. The risk is very much on my side, and I assume it gladly. This IS different than buying a perfume split. As to why one would be saddened? I can't speak from Chris, but for me the group buys are a learning experience even for those not involved in the buy (would we ever have known so much about Geosmin if the group buy was not discussed in such detail?), and basenotes is a place where many learn by following our threads even if they never post. Even discussions of money and what things cost are part of learning for DIY perfumers and those just interetsed in what goes into making a scent. We will now have these discussions in a private room, and IMO the richness of discussion and learning on the DIY forum will be poorer for it.
You certainly make a case. Yes, assumedly those who create perfumes would be more responsible than casual collectors but concerns remain. I would like to hear from a few more senior members here. If we allow this, any complaints of wrongdoing would not be given the same scrutiny as those in the marketplace, as this board has been self sufficient to its credit. Although the site takes no official responsibility for deals gone bad, I have been able to mediate, not moderate, a good percentage of such deals.
Just who is being protected and from what by restricting the activity to a marketplace from which some Basenotes members are excluded? In any case what has happened in practice is we've simply moved the activity elsewhere. Indeed I suspect it will stay there now anyway so the damage is already done.
As I'm now in a position of having my perfumery discussions in three different places I'm inevitably going to spend less time here on Basenotes and I don't think that's a good thing: I'm about to answer a question in private about the difference between muscone and l-muscone in the context of that buy - now, no-one here will be able to benefit from my answer or contribute to improving it. That's sad.
Most of all I was, and remain, saddened because this seems to me to be just rules being enforced to no purpose and that is something I abhor wherever it occurs and had not previously seen here.
Why on earth was it necessary to shoot first and ask questions afterwards?
I am a newbie, and joined basenotes due to the information and help posted by Chris, PKiler and several others. I can see your point, it's more than fair. I agree with Gecko214 as well.
With your watchful eye over this, it will be also very helpful. Personally, I would really like that the discussion remain on Basenotes. Many [ including self] benefit from that alone. When Chris and Pkiler say something is good, it's good.
Another solution: You Stuigi, buyers transfer payment to you. You transfer final payment to supplier after s/he sends proof of purchase, invoice and pictures to you. Shipments go out from supplier, confirms of receipt of order are made to you. Release payment. Nothing to mediate. It's been sent and received or not. Tracking numbers to cover the supplier.
What do you think?
Although more a reader than contributor, it is obvious to me that Chris has been acting as a kindly & experienced mentor to members using this board. Members posting here are patently not trying to 'push' their wares (or other people's) - I don't see time-wasting surreptitious posts here on behalf of random businesses that seem to plague some areas.
Penalising people for being co-operative & helpful is not a good thing!
(I would be more than likely to join a 'group buy' here for materials partly as my experience of sourcing them is limited & it's way easier to make costly mistakes in this area than when buying branded scents, which have an obvious resale value).
To do so at a time when Basenotes is having access problems seems to be encouraging a switch to Google/elsewhere, which would be sad.
I have enjoyed reading your posts Chris - thank you for sharing your knowledge and time.
- - - Updated - - -
Last edited by lpp; 28th January 2013 at 07:09 PM.
Stu, clean out your inbox so I can PM you
"Why on earth was it necessary to shoot first and ask questions afterwards?" Since this is a "Discussion forum for those who create their own perfumes", according to the site's own description, and since the site has this rule about selling/swapping "3.5 For Sale / Swap posts are not permitted in the Discussion boards" I think the better question is why was it assumed that splitting would be ok here? When rules are broken we take steps to enforce them. It is not arbitrary and is often discussed amongst the mods. Once again I think the knee jerk reaction of feeling it is such a tremendous inconvenience to split in an assigned marketplace split board and therefore having to move such splits elsewhere instead does not make sense. If the sole remaining reason to do so is to allow those with less than 500 posts to do splits here, it may be considered as the request for more input from "senior" DIY contributors was already made.
btw-The marketplace rules are highly appreciated by those who trade there.
Let us not let anything get in the way of common sense. It is not in anyones long term general interests to allow random trading within a perfume discussion forum, however experienced its members are. It will merely encourage others with less experience to do the same and not offer them the same protection. It is not necessarily obvious who is trustworthy and who is not to any newbs. Surely we have enough command of the English language to discuss any splits, ingredients and costs whilst keeping the actual trading post elsewhere within a designated split area. Surely it does not damage any transaction that badly.
Encouragement of any private trading within a forum detracts from true unbiased opinions. I agree that splitting is not a profiteering enterprise in this case, and this particular transaction is being done with the best intentions and interests of its members at heart....
BUT if splitting was allowed anywhere, then it is possible the forum could then follow that way with unscrupulous traders masquerading as forum postees in the future in order to promote their own products.
I am not anti ingredient splits by saying this, nor anti what is going on... just throwing in a pennysworth.... and I know you will all get cross with me...
Last edited by mumsy; 28th January 2013 at 10:33 PM.
It's generally best to judge actions by their outcomes IMO.
The outcome of this action has been to drive activity away from Basenotes. All the same people are involved, the same things are being done; no-one has been protected from anything, if indeed any protection was needed or on offer. Observers have been denied the opportunity to contribute or learn by watching.
So I am not disadvantaged or inconvenienced by it in any way - quite the reverse given the ultra-slow performance of Basenotes at the moment - others however are. Mostly people who were not involved in the group-buy (which does not seem to me to be the same as selling or swapping perfumes at all btw until this came up it had never occurred to me anyone might think it was).
As I said on the thread where this came to light in the first place: "are you sure this is the result you wanted?"
I would say that the outcome doesn't need to be that. Results are as you make them.
This has never been seen as a problem elsewhere, and if it is something continually desirable, then presumably it is something that needs addressing rather then deserting. However, each to their own.
(Sorry, that was in response to previous post not you Nasenmann).
So we have some in agreement with the marketplace alternative? Driving activity away from Basenotes? How much activity and how many people? It seems that some who have more than enough posts to do splits in the marketplace are protesting the most. I don't get it. I think the protests are not logical and perhaps exaggerated.
OK< from the Initiator of moving the buy offlist, I'll speak...
Probably the biggest part of the issue of these two particular splits, (I've called them group buys for many years, sorry if I slip...) was/is that there is an extreme difficulty in simply being able to obtain these elements. One is sold by Sigma Aldrich, and even professionals like me and Chris have had to fight tooth and nail to simply be allowed to buy from them. And neither of us can still buy what we seek, the Geosmin. ON my (Ours- Nova Wright, Frank, and I), we three moderate the Yahoo Perfumemaking group of 1700 participants, on this group we have been trying and trying to get this material for a period of time that probably spans five years. And even with all of these 1700 people, we still have not been able to make this buy happen, due to stringent regulations imposed by Sigma Aldrich. The other element may in fact only be made and sold by one source, and a company from which I have never been able to buy from.
When someone here thought that they could in fact succeed in conducting these transactions, everyone got very excited to make it happen. But then there are these rules on BN that I wasn't actually familiar with that we ran afoul of, quite unintentionally.
Probably our excitement got us/me hoping for the best. But I also try to avoid DRAMA of these types of things, which has obviously happened NOW. :-) (despite me trying to AVOID the DRAMA)...
Also, I have no reason to make Drama for others, or make myself a thorn in anyone's side... So I thought with the maturity of what seemed like all parties involved, that removing the barrier might be the best option.
And for reasons that I won't go into, one of our Yahoo Group's members has been discriminated against by some person in our Yahoo group, when this type of deal was conducted in public on that forum. So placing the only people in the room pertinent to the transaction seemed prudent to avoid many many types of unneeded drama and possible retribution/persecution as happened in the past. Plus then, Since I'm not hiding my identity behind a BN nick, I am placing my own reputation on the line in a public forum, so is Chris. My thought was to minimize. In many ways, manners, methods and personalities.
I guess that I may have failed in some sense...
Oh, I see that I have failed to answer a concern by Stuigi above...
I mentioned this in a private post between Stuigi and I... RE: leading activity away from basenotes... As the instigator, my intention was/is to simply offer an environment for a transaction, really nothing more. And I even stated this to the participants that the discussion for our purchase was indeed that, just regarding the purchase, and that real material discussion would/should remain on BN, for the reasons that others have given above. There was no intention to steal either discussion or people away from BN in any manner. I am certainly NOT trying to start a competitor to any other discussion group. I've got a lot of other things that I need to spend my time on, being a competitor to BN only entered my mind in a manner to prevent all appearances and actualities of such.
Last edited by pkiler; 29th January 2013 at 01:37 AM. Reason: Additional response missed earlier
It seems the ideal outcome would be:
1. That the discussion of musk and muscone be unlocked and reopened so that we can learn more about musk, e.g., the difference between l-muscone and "plain" muscone from people like Chris Bartlett
2. That any discussion of the transaction/split be conducted on the Splits marketplace board.
That seems pretty simple.
How can we make this happen? It seems that people like pkiler and gecko214 and a few others could easily agree to do this instead of taking everything "off list" to a Yahoo group. How about it? I'm sure stuigi would be OK with this. Can everyone chime in and let's make this happen.
If material splits are something that is desirable on a constant basis, then a separate DIY area split board would be an easy matter to arrange and moderate. The main problem seems to be that some valuable and experienced people from other forums have come here in this particular instant, specifically for this unusual split and do not have the post count necessary for this transaction. If I can help in any way with this, then you are most welcome to PM me and I can stand for you.
These postcount rules are elementary, and quite normal, public forum rulings that are simply there to weed out unscrupulous salespeople who misuse forums. They are not discriminatory.
Bshell I am not against it but I think it will be hard to separate them out, as the way discussion goes one thing leads to another, etc, as you know. That said, I think once the dust has settled a bit, a discussion of the difference, and particularly from all those who will now have real live stuff to smell, will be rich and useful to have on basenotes.
Not sure why the thread needs to be "locked" seems a bit excessive -- I certainly was not going to go back there and post on the group buy! Pour mstrocovie who was the one who revived that zombie thread must have run away and hidden by now! Sorry mstrocovie!
As to having rules on commerce at basenotes, I have no problem with that, nor should anyone of course (nor do I think does anyone). Personally I am not afraid of unfettered commerce, call me libertarian if you want. Maybe because I was born and raised in the hearthland of the Global Hedgemon, even if I have now defected to France, where you can't even have a sale outside a period approved by the government. But I digress... Even on ebay a newby can buy or sell as long as others are willing to take the risk (using though, a defined metric of reliability for people to judge, number of transactions and feedback rating). Their business model seems to have had some moderate success. Here that is not the case, newbies cannot initiate trade, fair enough. I do think if a true newby or some unscrupulous person came to sell exotic aromachemicals we would smell it a mile away and laugh them off the board. Recently for example someone new showed up and asked to have people pay shipping to evaluate their creations which I thought was pretty funny. Paul quickly and politely set that right (Paul, who has less than 500 posts). For me, since I have no particular ambition to have 500 posts (although ironically this whole thing has made me post more than in months) and no desire to have 50 positive ratings, I will probably always offer group buys (if I ever do again) off basenotes.
The blind sniff threads manage this quite successfully. They have the main bulk discussions about the swap in one place and a link to the actual sniff within it. The sample pass threads do the same. It has not yet proved a problem, but ho hum. It is always a pity when a good discussion goes a bit sour. I shall start a split thread myself I think to start a happier ball rolling.
It seems that I dropped in at just the right (wrong) time.
I'm not a senior basenotes contributor, but I'm around a bit, and I'm a perfumer. (And I know Grant, and he knows I'm not about to run off with anyone's money.) I also buy from Sigma-Aldrich, but only from their W list - flavours and fragrances - and have just stepped up a notch to invest in some serious quantities of the synthetics that I use a lot of in my own perfumes. I'm sure that there are a lot of D-I-Y-ers that S-A won't supply yet, but who'd love to get a little bottle of raspberry ketone crystals or cedramber just to give it a go.
So I was planning to drop in here and see what the score is.
It seems to me that a straight split is going to be a bit hard on the initial purchaser (in this case, me). I'd be doing the repackaging, supplying bottles and making all the trips to the post office, and I'm aiming to make a living out of perfumery. I'd be happy to share the cost of the materials, but I'd want to cover my extra costs and labour.
Err, so I think I'll just disappear and see if I can find another way to make that happen.
Don't go Chris! What would be do without you?
Perfumer & writer
"the world of perfume needs shaking up, and youíre the gal to do it" Jo Fairley
I've just laid an idea at the doorstep of the DIY split section to see if it is of any interest.
so Chris, I eat humble pie, you are absolutely right..... proof is in the pudding and I shall eat a hat....
Last edited by mumsy; 31st January 2013 at 10:00 AM.
i am also saddened by this. i think decisions have been made that were uninformed. i have put quite a bit of time and effort into the diy forum over the years, and this is comes as bit of a disappointment really, an unpleasant surprise.
i think it would be best to have a diy senior appointed as moderator for this forum. someone who reads and understands what is going on.
This seems like a nice, genuine place, so maybe a mod from 'within', who doesn't have other distractions & time consuming duties might be a way forward as they would know who was 'trying it on' and could deal accordingly - nobody was getting hurt here!
lol. +1 for making Chris a mod
One of the aspects of Basenotes that makes me particularly proud to be involved, is the way that it changes, develops and adapts to the needs of it's ever growing community. In this spirit, this subject, obviously so important to some valued contributors, will be discussed and a decision reached as to the best way to go forward.
The feedback received already and any further feedback in the meantime will be taken into account as we decide how best, for the majority, to handle this one.
Surely two months is sufficient time for a decision on the way forward to be reached and communicated to all concerned?
Can I have an update please?
I guess you could call me a newbie when it comes to this board and it's content but I'm a veteran of forums and the older bulletin boards. I even ran a board when we had local dial ups, back in 1993. My board was a painter's board and I had 2,700 members.
My point is, like Kissandmakeup said...is that things do evolve. If they didn't, we'd all be stagnant. if the rules can't accommodate a new idea, then by jeez, change them if they make sense.
I don't see a problem for this board in allowing this split idea at all...unless of course the activity was illegal. Matter of fact, a simple disclaimer would suffice IMO.
As for the idea of worrying about who's screwing who, are we all babies? Come on, we're adults who aren't always as dumb as we may look
There is a phrase; "caveat emptor" which means - let the buyer beware. The phrase (and rule) isn't there to protect the ill willed people, it's to protect the good people.
A little common sense and some minor group effort would seem to be suffice in order to allow this splitting to be carried on at this forum, IMO.
By the way, my opinion is that most people who didn't know who they were dealing with would probably be cynical of some deals anyway..at least until they got to know the person selling. But of course, realizing who the veterans are here and seeing what deals are being made should be a good qualifier to realize who is who.
By the way, I shied away from the Geosmin deal because I didn't know who Javier was. I chose to be wary and distrusting and I lost out. A simple rules of knowing who the man's circle of friends were would have been sufficient for me IF I would have followed my own advice. I apologize Javier.
Just my opinion...
Long Ago I made a choice to be a Producer, instead of just a Consumer.
A Consumer sees what is available and watches it, buys it, plays with it, uses and enjoys the item or service.
A Producer is the one who does the research, learns the skills, dreams the product or ideas, and goes about the creating and the making. Sometimes these Producers don't even own a television, because it can be such a waste of their precious time in the pursuit of the making.
One is passive, and one is active.
DIY is a Producers forum, not a Consumers forum.
All the rest of the forums at Basenotes are consumers forums.
The world MUST have both types for it to function, flourish, and progress.
I have sincerely enjoyed my time in the DIY makers forum. I've made several new friends, even in my short time here.
But this action diminishes my enjoyment and activity.
Entrepreneurs are responsible for making it all happen, and for themselves most of all.
Real Life and Business proceeds well beyond the borders of Basenotes, and Entrepreneurs have to figure it all out.
Therefore, Producers must take it upon themselves to use all the tools available to them to make it happen for themselves.
Basenotes is a tool, but not always the right one for the job. I wish I could think of a better analogy; But I have two sets of wrenches, being an American. One is Metric, and one is Inches. I need the right tool for the right job, because only a couple of wrenches actually fit a nut in both Metric and Inches. All the rest are mis-fits. And Since I have products made that use both systems, I need to find the right tool for that nut to make something, or fix the problem.
Let's call Basenotes the Metric system, for lack of a better analogy. It works for some things, but not all.
It is up to us to use the right tools for the right job.